Yeah maybe stop talking in terms of RPG rules and start talking in terms of logic. I know that's a difficult concept for you but can you please humor me?

This is fantasy lad, you check your logic at the door the moment you accept that a rotten old corpse is walking around making smartass comments and blowing shit up while singing a duet with a dwarf who multi-classed as a bard/fighter.

For the sake of argument try to act like you're not a stubborn unimaginative fool and seriously consider how desperate your points are getting.

If you've been paying attention, you'd know that I, much like Richard, don't do serious very often. Serious is boring and stiff, it's much more fun to just go with it.

And just like Richard you fail to amuse me with your pseudo-wit.
Look this is a hopeless argument because you're bringing me down to your level and beating me with experience.

Any lvl 5 wizard can fwoosh people and they can create arrows too meaning after you logic Richard isn't awesome.

And that's your concern, the most important thing is to amuse yourself first, the audience comes after.



Yes, but they can't look as good doing it. Any level 5 fighter can pick up a katana and start cutting things, but they can't look as badass as Samurai Jack doing it.

Derailment senses tingling, better get this topic back on track soon.
Alright here goes:
Cale is not, never has, and (barring magical sex change sometime in the possible future) never will be a girl. And if he was a girl he'd be a really ugly butch girl who everyone would assume is a man.

WARNING! WARNING!

Thread has officially been derailed. Use emergency measures to get back on track or brace for closing. I repeat...

~~~

I don't much think of Cale as all that feminine. As I've said elsewhere, it was a one off joke that people have driven into the ground. Not much fun anymore.

This is true, but he'll also never be a man either, he'll always just be an elf.

An elf who'd stomp your ass into next week. Not so feminine when his boot's up your ass.

@rurik: you clearly have seen my wiz then



Sorry <.< *gets back on topic*

..yes, Cale have never been a girl ..just an old joke.

Most girls I know could stomp my ass into next week as well.

Well then far be it for you to decide what is and isn't manly. You know what they say: "People in glass houses shouldn't call Elves gay because those elves will break their glass houses with many arrows" or something like that.
You've failed to provide a real objective argument for Cale's femininity.

Never said Cale was gay, unless it turns out Cale is a girl, or at least as close as elves come to them, I said Cale is ambiguously gendered, like all elves. And it's never been my goal to provide an objective argument anyway, Cale doesn't even exist, why would I want to waste my time doing a ton of research to prove a fictional character is or is not a man?

Look you can either bring a real argument or get out of the thread, your choice, I'm done reading idiotic contradictory posts.

You asked the question, don't get mad when people give you an answer that isn't the same as your own.

You gave your answer. Now reinforce it with something concrete.

*points* .Troll

...If you don't want to contribute to the thread then don't post. It's simply, really.

I did, Cale's an elf, elves are by their very nature ambiguously gendered.

Again that's your opinion, there's no real rule that says that so you'll have to give better evidence.

Nay, only a few individuals.

And you know what they say, kiddies.

Don't feed the troll!!!

I always forgot to read the signs in zoo *hangs head in shame*

Historically speaking, elves are most often depicted as females in mythology, in literature whenever male elves are depicted, they are depicted as being feminine in appearance, just like Cale is.

Again that's subjective. Youthful looking or ageless are more apposite terms

Cale's masculinity is equally subjective, your point is?

My point is that I've done more than just say he's "such and such" because he's an elf. I've pointed out things he's done and actual physical features to support my position. You're just blustering on the other hand.

He's done absolutely nothing that a female couldn't have performed.

But he does have chiseled pecks and a manly aquiline nose.
Gender isn't defined on what you can do (except for whether or not you can have babies, which Cale can't) it's about self-identification and social identification by others. He's identified as male.

The first time I ever saw Michael Jackson I thought he was a woman, doesn't change the fact he wasn't, what others identify someone as does not prove their gender, as stated in the Order of the Stick FAQ.



And Cale has not once that I recalled ever described her/himself as any gender.

Sociologically sex and gender are two different things. Sex is what you are (male or female, biologically) gender is what your or your society's perception of you is.

However the dictionary defines gender and sex as being one and the same.

They're synonyms in that context but in a sociological context they're different concepts. Technically squares and rectangles are one in the same...

You asked if Cale looked like a girl of course, which means the only evidence really needed is the perceptions of the individual answering the questions. Had you asked "Is Cale a girl." that would require evidence which can only be obtained by removal of Cale's underpants, which I for one do not wish to see, as well as knowledge of his species' anatomy, not all species have the same sexual features.

We did see the bulge...

That assumes elves have the same anatomical structures as a human though, otherwise all elves could have the same "bulge."

Assuming otherwise just seems silly to me. For all intents and purposes elves are pointy eared humans.

Dear god, man. Are you still feeding that troll?

You realize that you're only encouraging him by continuing the argument, right? He can go on forever with every whim that comes to his mind while you bog yourself down with your troublesome logic.

Let it go.

Elves are typically much longer lived than humans though, which that alone suggests their anatomy is somehow different from that of a human, if the only difference were pointy ears and slimmer physiques then humans would live for hundreds of ears just the same as elves.

Hes a guy. He's flat chested, he's got a bulge between his legs, and he's doing an orc girl whos all lady. Sure, elves arent human but they do come in male and female, hell most of the males can grow beards, even in Tol (aka Cirdan), for a LFG elf with chin whiskers see page 40. If facial hair doesnt spell guy for ya, on page 168, a sister calls him male, and he asks a preemptive question only a guy would think of.

But its ok man, I kinda understand where youre coming from, some, but not all fantasy paints elves as girlie. Its just backlash from them being shown as uppity yet beautiful, which was the more traditional lore. Somehow uppity and beautiful became effeminate. Guess most modern fantasy was written by peasants and red-necks. *shrugs*

Having a flat chest doesn't make one any more of a man than having boobs makes you a woman, nor does facial hair make you a man, you should see the goatee on my neighbor Beth, and as I've pointed out, the way a person perceives another doesn't define their physical gender, only what that individual assumes is their gender.

Dude, the blues elves called him MALE, and how do you explain away the bulge in his britches? Artistic licence? Granted there's nothing physical about gender. Gender is only the cultural norms for your biological sex. Ill give you that alot of the cultural norms for some fantasy elves smack as feminine to western civ, but that doesnt make elf gents into ladies.

Are you arguing from the point of view that we wouldnt consider him a man because he's somewhat effeminate then? Rather than caring about whats between his legs? I'm still calling you out on bunk. I know some transsexuals very well, and while popular media likes to call them transgendered thats pure Bullsh!t, hell some of them are homosexual transsexual, transvestites. Your sex, even if youre in between sexes physically or mentally, is purely based off your instinctual biological urges.

Cale's a man. Maybe he's a girly man, or a young boy who hasnt found himself yet, but he's still male and so are all other fantasy elf males portrayed in the same manner. To me there's no ambiguity until one of them rolls out with, "Im having it severed because you know, it just doesnt belong in my thong."

The phrase "girly man" always makes me think of Ahnold Shwarzenegger in the Hanz & Franz SNL short...

To be fair, the title of this thread is "Cale's Masculinity." Masculinity typically being a way people might perceive each other. As far as I can tell Rurik has simple given his opinion on that. I don't think it's fair to ask for a logical explanation for something one perceives.

I seriously doubt that anyone really thinks that Cale is a woman at this point. They might think he's feminine, but not actually a woman. Anyone who does has some kind of issues.

One word, hermaphrodite.

Alright stop right there. Hermaphrodite is the most poorly used biological term ever. There hasn't been a true hermaphrodite in over a hundred years and the rare cases of true hermaphrodites aren't at all how most people think they are. The fact is that he was obviously doing something to Benny that made her moan (a finger usually won't cut it) and a hermaphrodite possesses a combo of both (non-functioning) sex organs. Hermaphrodites can't really have sex. Try again Rurik.

You're thinking in terms of humans again, Cale is not a human. There are numerous examples of naturally occurring hermaphrodites in the animal kingdom, snails, slugs, worms, all three of which are likely to be close relatives of elves, and hyenas were thought to be hermaphrodites as late as the twentieth century because of the unusually large clitoris the females possess, which is also a distinct possibility for elves to possess.

Dude don't be an idiot, I know it's hard not to be for you but at least try. Elves are nothing like slugs, snails, and worms. Yes we don't know that Cale's biology is anything like a human but we sure as hell know he's WAAAAAAAYYYYYY more complicated than snails, slugs, and worms. Those things are pretty damn simple so they can afford to be hermaphroditic.

Pft, I'd be willing to bet on the fact that elves are related to slugs, really disgusting slugs at that.