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article 2 (wiki)
article 3 (Perputal says this is an attack on Christianity)

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My question is, has Bush weakened the constitution enough that I can drag the infidels out of there houses, scalp them, then push them neck deep into an ant bed like my fore fathers?

Seriously though, what do you guys think of this article and the many out there like it. I will be adding more articles and videos like this (both credible and silly) as I find them. I encourage people to post links to articles on this topic as well and if they are relevant to my research I will include them in the topic.

Wow, Muslims are persecuting Christians. Oh, wait a moment, we've been persecuting them as well.

And why do they take offence that Christianity is banned in Communist Countries? There's the fact that NO OTHER RELIGIONS ARE ALLOWED EITHER!

So, just because it's illegal to be homophobic America is destroying Christianity?

Heck ya it's wrong to force kids to pray in schools! It's Bloody seperation of church and state for crying out loud!

Bull crap (not to you manta lord). maby in other countries but not here. Religous freedom is one of our most basic, most fundamental freedoms. If i were to see serious signs of this happening, I would take up such a battle it would spill into the streets in every state. the only way for them to do this is to do it over time (long time). if this became blatant in any way riots would break out everywhere, hell it might start another revolution!

im all for separation of religion and state, but this is deferent. if they want to do away with Christianity, they better be ready for long bloody fight!

Two words everyone has to agree on before anyone can go anywhere.

Fine, I agree.



It's just they're exaggerating quite a bit...

That's one of the things any two religions have to agree on before the hate stops. We tend to exaggerate about the other side. Another is that we also tend to exaggerate about ourselves as well.

i agree hate is bad.

That would be completely different from the long bloody fight Christianity went through to claw its way to to the top right?

I don;t think it's very deferent at all.


I don't agree.

Hate is a useful tool to inspire patriotism through jingoism.

to separate a government from a religion is understandable and right. For that government to lunch a war on that religion is DEFERENT and wrong!

That would be completely different from the long bloody fight Christianity went through to claw its way to to the top right?

Dont compare me to people who fought to get to the top. I am against killing, undermining, overtaking and all the other things some people did to get Christianity to were it is. but i would fight to protect it and much more importantly the people who believe in it. I tolerate all forms of belief, but will not tolerate ANY form of active (as in violent or unjust) prejudice of any kind.

We can compare you to leaders of your own faith. The "but I am one of the good ones!!!" argument is very weak. Simply put, this isn't about you.

Im not trying to say if im better or worse than any one before me, im just saying that i will not fight any one unless it absolutely needed, in which case i would fight to defend. you can take that how ever you want. besides you have no right to pass any judgment on me. All beliefs, from Christianity to atheism have made mistakes or done things they are not proud of.

... this subject is very volatile, I like you Carcer, I find you to be one of my intellectual equals. I dont want to think less of you through argument. I'm signing off this topic, i post to talk about stuff that helps me to relieve my days problems, not to start more of them.

Well that is where we stand in contrast. I am a very violent individual. The type of person that has a desire, or even a need to kill. If I wasn't military bound I don't know how I would end up.

Also, it is conceited to rate compare your intelligence with someone else. Typically people who speak of how intelligent and wise they are they are not as nearly of either as they think they are. I am not implying anything by this, just letting you know I think this and warning you that others do to.

Very well Carcer, I will refrain from complimenting you in the future. It is clear to me that you do not seek civil conversation, and do not care for any respect that some one may throw your way, preferring instead, to take offense or turn their comment back upon the person in a instigating way. You quite clearly post only for argumentative purposes, and enjoy choosing perpetual disagreements which can last weeks or months (such as religion). I respect your choice to cause problems and will not feed into your need to argue. This is probably my last post to you Carcer (or at least one of the few I will ever address to you), Respond to it If you like. Or don't, it doesn't matter.

Maybe you were trying to complement me however, implying that someone is at the same intelligence as you is considered less of a compliment and more of the person saying, " I am as smart as you!" and can be considered insulting. I personally feel I take natural intelligence out of the equation by the obsessive amounts of research I do on a day to day basis and for someone to try to say they are equal to me without the level of dedication I have put into my studies does not feel like a complement at all.

As for me keeping arguments going, I am immature and I hate to lose. On top of that I also openly admit i have a severe mental disorder(ptsd). Everyone has there flaws it was rude of me to point out one of yours and I am sorry I offended you.

He said something very similar to me in a negative tone, and you suggest he uses the same thing he opposed. I tell you, he's very hard to converse with. This isn't the only hole I've seen in his views, although he covers the holes up pretty well. I don't know him well enough, I'm no one to judge.

Seems a bit paranoid to me, but it's not completely wrong.

Fun. That makes two against Carcer. Who's up next?

The way I saw it, Gobby was saying that most forum posters are narrow-minded fools, and that you weren't. It was a compliment, not a boast. Even if it was a boast, it was still a compliment. Even more-so, since (in the context of boasting) he thinks you're as smart as he is.

Carce, calm down. I seem to be saying that to a lot of people today. You're just asking for trouble.


No, you weren't implying anything. You outright said he was conceited for comparing his intelligence with anyone, which, can or cannot be conceited depending on the situation.


You're digging yourself deeper! This is getting out of control. You just did the very thing you consider conceited, insulted him, his attempt to be friendly, his compliment, and made yourself look arrogant.

Keeping arguments going is not immature. Good of you to try to apologies, but you insulted him again in the attempt! He didn't do anything wrong that I could see. He was complimenting you, take the compliment and be happy you got it.


Don't you start that, again.

Carce, please don't respond to Penny. Or, if you do, don't do it in anything less than civil tones.

Gobby, I like you. You seem to be a good guy, and you gave a noble effort.

May your posts be civil and kind.

-_-

He doesn't make a lot of sense when I put his point of view together, my only explanation is that he has multiple personalites or multiple people on his account. How can I put that across without being accused of trolling?

And it wouldn't matter if you told him not to reply, he's beyond caring for anything I say anymore.

Perp is like the mom who takes care of everyone and stops the arguments...


And Carce... if comparing your intelligence to others makes one conceited, what does that make you?

I did not say, "Gobby you are a narrow-minded fool." That would be in the context of my post it would be implied not direct and as I said I was implying nothing but saying he could be perceived that way. I am often over critical of people I like it is a nasty habit and puts allot of people off.

I think i'll just walk away and never come back to this topic......

All right, I believe you. You've semi-sucessfully defended yourself.

Thanks Perp. You are quite a character (in a good way). You seem to be a reasonable and calming voice in a sea of misunderstanding and hostilities. you surprise me in how you (unlike many other people that try to be the voice of reason) never over step the realm of constructive criticism. you have a natural nack for this.

And thank you as well Pen, you are a very peaceful person as far as i can see and (despite sometimes being goaded int a response) have a very good line of reasoning.

Goodness me, the first one ever to compliment me on this forum. You certainly are the nicest I've met thus far, you and Perp both. Thank you.

Gobby, it's posts like that that make my efforts worth it.

Plus, I have some sort of obsessive need to be a mediator.

There was one post I made geared toward a blow-up not too long ago that I got rather aggressive. I thought it was needed, though, so it was within the realm of reason in my view.

I've also had plenty of practice. I've played middle-man betwen my mom and sister for all my life. It most definitely contributed to my love of drama.

Edit: Including Pen in that "it's posts like that" thing. I feel loved.

I give credit were credit is do. thats all. you both deserve the complements.

Making kids pray at school is the exact opposite of freeodm of religion.

Doesn't sound like they're deferring at all.


Dibs on being hostilities.

Heh... wow the chat finally turned about to its orginal topic.
I think that discussion shouldn't become about arguements, its good to have a strong opinon but make sure you don't become offensive to each other! That changes everything! It lowers yourself and the others around you.

[sarcasm] Offensive?

I don't take offense, I find that very offensive! [/sarcasm]

Really? Oh good now I can sleep well @ night

Should have used this picture, I've taken a liking to it. However, I can foresee that MantaLord has plans to steal it...


Anyway... Yeah... you're correct in what you say, but for most people that is an improbability. It's not likely we'll all agree to disagree anytime soon.

Very true

(LOVE THAT PICTURE!)

You're starting to really sell this offensive angle to me.

Tell me more.

It seems to me that the idea of a "War on Christianity" is actually a two-fold propaganda machine set about by the more evangelical sects of Christianity. The first point of it is to categorize Christians as victims. If they manage to paint themselves as victims, than any rational and/or logical debate between the two sides becomes negated as it makes non-Christians seem the aggressors in the argument. That brings about the second bit of it, in the fact that it covers up the attempts of Evangelicals in their attacks on secularism. It allows them to spew lots of nonsense in a smear and misinformation campaign about how the government is actually run (ideas such as the United States being created as a "Christian nation", etc.), and casts non-religious types in a negative light in the public eye forcing them from being able to hold key places within the government (atheists stand no chance of being president).

Well, yeah. Of course.

The reality is that atheists are the hardest t convert. Believing in the "wrong" religion is a lot easier to correct than getting somebody to play the game at all.

Stealing! Pshaw! Would never think of such a thing!

Odd. Based on the introduction of one of the articles, I expected this article to talk about other countries' persecution of Christianity, which I don't agree with. However, it starts an arguement about America's persecution of Christianity, which is new to me. I've never heard of it before now. How can it be possible? Most of us are Christians, after all. Can't Christians marry? Does anybody stare sideways at a cross? Do people get turned down for jobs because they look Christian? Are Christians scared of being beat up or killed in this country because they are Christian? Has not every single president been Christian? This article is ludicrous.

Why don't we examine some people who are being persecuted? Lets see. Can gays marry? Does anybody stare sideways at a guy praying towards Meccah or a woman covered head-to-toe? Has a middle-easterner been turned down for a job because they are Muslim, or a guy turned down because he was gay, or a woman turned down because she was a woman? Have guys been beaten and killed in the streets because they were gay, or brown? Are there legal societies out there to protest and limit gay rights?

Is it possible for anybody to be convinced by such crude propoganda? Only a person who already agrees with what is written would nod to this.

Oh, they made a pretty good argument. Us Christians have been hit by the no-more-Christmas-in-public-institutions deal because we're used to being able to put Merry Christmas on store windows. They are discriminating against Christians more than other religions by doing that, but only because we're more numerous. Other religions weren't hit as hard, because there wasn't as much to be hit. I don't know about you, but before this big political-correctness storm with Holidays, I'd never seen a store with "Happy Hanuka (I don't know how to spell that)" or any other religion's festivities plastered on it. Weren't targetting us, we were just hit harder. Not that I'm saying they're completely right. They're crazy for turning it into a conspiracy theory.

As for people being hurt/killed for being Christian in the US? It's happened. It's not common by any means, but it isn't unheard of.

I agree there is too much P.C. concerning holidays. I'm Jewish and I've always celebrated Christmas instead of ©Hanukah. It's not like an American, Jew, or even Muslim would get offended by seeing a Nativity scene, however. Jesus is a holy figure in all religions. You know what Hanukah celebrates? It's nothing particularly Jewish: a synagouge in a besieged town had only one day of oil left for a holy lamp. It lasted 8 days until the seige lifted. It was a miracle of G-d, so you'd think even Muslims should celebrate Hanukah. Of course, we forget we all worship the same figure, and we hate and kill our fellow worshipper's in His name, blaspheming it. Ah, I got off-topic, please don't respond to that point.

Have Christians been attacked in the street for being Christian? I find that disconcerting. Could you please provide any proof? I've tried a cursory search and found nothing. I'd think a physical attack on a Christian for being Christian would be all over the news.

Honestly, whether it happens or not doesn't matter. The question I posed was specifically 'are Christians afraid of being beat up or killed on the streets because they are Christians?' The answer is no.

Oh, not attacked in the street, no. The event I was talking about is quite famous, the Columbine Massacre. There's a lot of controversy on the subject of whether the shooters and a few victims had the exchange involving the question "Do you believe in God?", but I heard at the time that it was the case with at least one of them.

Columbine Massacre The Crime Library has a pretty detailed description of the events of the day, though it makes no mention of the alleged exchanges between the shooters and a few victims. Wikipedia should have something about them, or if not, I'm sure there are Wiki pages on the two most well known; Rachel Scott and Cassie Bernall. The police determined that the exchange between Cassie and the shooter(s) never took place, but who really knows? It couldn't be confirmed that it did. Doesn't mean it didn't.

And, you're right. We aren't, because we don't need to be. It's sad that even here, not everyone can be completely free to believe nothing bad could happen for whatever reason. It's still much better than most other countries.

Not much of a miracle.

Ending the siege would have been more miraculous.


That's a bold claim.

Yea, I admit its not that much of a miracle, but what are you going to do? If somebody wants to celebrate amazing miracles, they'd switch to Christianity.

Or Mormonism!

*Gets Slapped*


Sorry...

That was hilarious! I really need to write that down somewhere.

I think Dogma had religion right when Salma Hayek's character said: "You people mourn your faith, not celebrate it." I see a lot of Christians (not all of them) feel as if they have to adhere to a strict Biblical code. It makes them irrate, standoffish and a pain in the butt to joke around with. However, I have to say, for not being a Christian-- I met a wonderful pastor who was just like me; just a little more God-fearing.

Ya know, I wonder if hundreds of years of persecution and rape and murder has finally caught up. Now don't get me wrong I have nothing against Christians as a whole, I hate people that prove they deserve to be hated. If there is a Muslim Masochist gay dude who donates money for orphaned children and I can have a pleasant conversation w/, then while I may not find his ways suitable for me I won't hate him for his beliefs.

All organized religions have radicals and even more radical leaders, and all ethnicities have near blood feuds w/ other races. So the "war on Christians" really isn't that special, everyone is hated against by someone else.

And there's the fact that Christians hate each other.

I'm more against extremists and not the religion (I prefer saying "set of faiths"). After all, you have people who take it in moderation and live quite peaceful lives and people who take it to a level it doesn't need to go to. I have plenty of Christian friends, and I'm happy to say that they have yet to attempt to convert me. They've managed to talk me into attending churchly functions with them-- but nothing life-changing. Its all on perspective of the person.

I agree mostly, I have many religious friends but their religious life doesn't come between us and they don't try to force it on me, however I'm opposed to most organized religion simply because it's more about tradition and practice these days (I find) rather than trying to experience spirituality.