I don't really get the whole deal in the second storie. It's maybe late so that's why I can't think clearly anymore but still. So could someone maybe expain the situation with that army and Gamlon and Kehe...(you know, the city).
I hope that then I maybe can follow a bit easier.

I like to add that it's also in the third issue.

Well, this isn't exactly a specific question, so I'll see what I can do to help you out.

Okay, Gamlon is a nation of honorable(and some what sissy-ish) elves. Up to this point, the current history is that all elves are evil, and this gives Cale proof, and hope, that he is not the only noble elf in existance. The Vuuli are a branch of elves that are selfish and cruel, bent on the destruction of the other elven nations, and pretty much anything that would stand against their corruption.

The Vuuli come calling at Gamlon's gates, and Gamlon has little to no hope for survival. They're literally grasping at straws for help(the pun works because Cale falls into a pile of hay, lawlz). Gamlon is destroyed, but in their destruction, they're convinced that Kethencia simply refused to help them in their time of need. Unknown to Gamlon and her people, Kethencia is also undersiege by the Vuuli and actually CAN'T provide aid without leaving themselves open to death.

Tavor swears an oath of revenge to his dying king. He's then killed by the Vuuli in the same place that the princess is killed. The magics that preserved her into the future are also(presumably) what preserved Tavor in Cale's swords until Kethencia can be revealed and his vengence can occur.

Cale and crew pass through the portal and see the shape that Kethencia is in, and reveal Tavor's bloodlust as he betrays them and all that are good to ensure the destruction of Kethencia. At this point, Cale kills the Anchor and releases Kethencia from the timeline.

Any other questions?

Eh? All I could percieve that Gamlon favored diplomacy while Vuuli favored unification by conquest. That alone does not make them selfish and cruel. World domination is a crime only punishable if not commited.

But that doesn't mean they are blameless. Kethenecia ruled other nations and was supposed to protect them in return. So don't blame Tavor, he did what he had to do. Unlike Kethenecia.

Had to do? In my book, personal agendas based on vengeance and anger are never "have to do", but always "choose to do".

Ok I get it know, but still two questions.
1: Why is the army of kethenicia attacking itself (it had something to do with soldiers of them that are vuulti
2: Why did Tavor kill the kid. He was the anchor or somthing but what exactly happens when you do or don't kill him/it.

1) Because the general was a paranoid racist.
2) He didn't. Cale did, so history could be rewritten. The kid was the anchor of "old Kethnecia", had to be removed in order to reshape history and "do better this time".

Well, typically, those who kill others for their beliefs being different are not the most selfless beings. And the cruelty definitly shows when the slaughter of women, children, and butterflies becomes a national agenda.



No, you're right. Kethencia has a fault for what happened, and that's based around the actions of the archmage. The general turned on his own army because he feared a betrayal by the forces from Vuuli territory. This isn't so much a racist act, as it is a paranoid and overly cautious one. The army knew they were going to die. At least the general did. That was part of the plan. I think Pella became involved with the group because the General had a desire to save his daughter. The archmage's blame is the greatest because he manufactured a scenario in which only his city was saved without any attempt to save those around him.

His "We'll do better this time" attitude is very heartless, considering the people that were abandoned for his second try. Tavor's innocence is called into question the moment he betrays the protectors and joins sides with the very army that sacced his city and killed everything he loved. His vengence against the ones indirectly to blame have placed him on sides with the ones directly to blame. This is not what he "had to do". This is the blind rage of a maniac.

That would be a point to argue in General Discussion.

Let's just say that I wonder what happened if Richard happened to help the Vuuli...most probably he'd end up being the emperot of the world

Except it's in direct relation to a group within the comic, so I'd say it's not completely out of place. They're evil, and they caused the perception of an entire race to become evil. Thus, Richard's convincing Cale in the beginning(or trying to, anyway) that he's evil.

I have a hunch that Issue 5 will answer many questions for us.

We can only hope.

Bathe your blades in blood and avenge us in Kethenecia.
"had to do" = "chose to do for an unfunny reason, such as duty"

So totally blameless. (panel 2)

Betrayal? (panel 2) The Vulii have been clear in their intentions for some 50 years. Kethenecia failed to protect Gamlon and its other subjects. Which of the two is "better"? Neither, actually. The war between Gamlon and the Vulii has ended. Tavor was following orders. From his POV, Cale was the traitor, having witnessed Gamlon's destruction and deciding to save Kethenecia.

Oh sure, blame it on the dead king

Y'know, he COULD have listened to the group&the AM, and if he had done that, he'd realized that by helping them, he'd not only avenge the Gamlon/Vulii incident, but in truth effectively erase it from the history - while still bathing his blades in blood.

He CHOSE not to listen to the AM, even as he held his blade against the AM's throat.

And, to top that..."Bathe your blades in blood and avenge us in Kethenecia" doesn't sound to me like a "good" statement either.

Tavor is a knight, a soldier. You might say a soldier is only as good as his (or her) ability to follow orders.

I don't think it really mattered to Tavor what the group's plans were. I think he was planning to get into the castle and kill the Archmage from the beginning. Traveling with Cale and the others merely helped him get there.

Well, the orders were not very specific now were they? He was basically told to go kill stuff, but not what stuff.

I mean, joining the group would also let him poke people with sharp and pointy objects. In my book he still did what he chose to do, not what he had to do.

"Avenge us in Kethenecia." What better revenge is there than to off their leader?

Well, one must still CHOOSE to do exactly that.

Oh, and as for a better way: Letting Richard into their orphanages.

But that's beside the point.


EDIT:

Look at it this way. On one hand you have the revenge, on the other the potential for effective prevention of the conflict. I see a choice here. As Richard would say, "Decisions, decisions"

Huh? I don't get the "...crime only punishable if not commited [sic]" line.

Yeah the fact that the Vulii attack to conquer and like to skin alive those they take captive, slaughter little children and utterly destroy every culture that does not surrender to them, sure does not make them selfish and cruel. <sarcasm>


Wrong. Feudal society. Tavor swore an oath to his king (who also happened to be his father) to punish Kethenecia for their refusal to do their duty and protect their vassal state Gamlon. Any medieval knight, any samurai, would have agreed that to break such an oath to one's liege lord and to run from the enemy would mean the greatest shame and disgrace.

The punishment for betrayal, on the other hand, was death.

If you attempt to overthrow the fpowers that be, but fail...well, you're in trouble. If you DO succeed, however...?



I reread the comic three times but I seem to have missed out on the "like to skin alive those they take captive, slaughter little children and utterly destroy every culture that does not surrender to them" part.

And, I hope you don't mind if I don't 100% trust into the credibility of the Gamlon king who says bad things about the Vulii. I mean, in such strifes, the sides ALWAYS accuse each other but when looked at from distance, they're not THAT different.



Hah, but considering the real reason for Kethnecia not helping, his oath was null and void since it was based on a wrong conclusion.



I wouldn't call letting history take a path where Kethnecia DID help (or, even better, the war never happened), a betrayal. I'd call it a favorable outcome.

1) There were no Vulii soldiers in the Kethenecian army. There were "foreign" soldiers from vassal states, states which had recently been overrun by the Vulii, and the archmage feared these men would side with the army of the Vulii and their allies once that army reached Kethenecia, because these men would fear retribution upon their own families if they didn't switch sides. But that whole accusation was never proven. The archmage simply ordered the dwarf, the commander of the Kethenecian Homeguard, to take all those "foreign" human regiments out onto the plane in front of the city and then slaughter them in a surprise attack from behind.

2) Tavor wanted to protect the "kid" (which wasn't a boy at all, but anyway) because HE wanted to change history. He wanted to make sure the city of Kethenecia would not be set adrift in the time stream but instead the Kethenecian people should reap what their archmage sowed and "pay for their crimes". Tavor told Cale, "The circle must be broken.", meaning the time loop. Which incidentally was the same position that the dragon leader originally took when Cale first met him (although this was probably another test for Cale): Dragon leader was claiming that Kethenecia was too corrupt to be of any use http://lfgcomic.com/page/78 in the future and that it should be allowed to fall.

Cale killed the kid because the archmage had told him that the "anchor" had to be loosened/destroyed, the anchor that kept Kethenecia tethered to the material realm. The archmage wanted to set it adrift in the time stream to move it to the future, where archmage and dragons wanted to start Attempt Number 2 to bring about a Glorious Age of Honor. By "killing" the child, Cale did exactly that, he FULFILLED the prophecy (see the golden statue), because he had a shred of hope that the archmage might be correct and that an ancient city and its glamourous name could bring peace to the war-torn corrupt future (Cale's present time), alleviating Cale calls "the future madness" on page 80.
(I've written at length what I think about that "plan" of the archmage in another thread: Here.)

Cale didn't rewrite history, on the contrary he helped the archmage create the time loop in the first place. Remember, when the group first arrived at the Ketten Wastelands where historically the mythical Kethenecia was said to have stood, they found Kethenecia as a mirage in the desert and entered through a portal. The timeline in which Kethenecia was set adrift in time IS the original timeline. The circle was not broken. They all acted their parts like good little puppets.



Tavor tells Cale on Page 37: "My hope is that the Vulii will kill you swiftly before removing your skin." which implies that usually the Vulii are not that "merciful" of killing a victim first.

The Gamlonian king says that "The Vulii seek to lead the Elven into a new era, one of greed, cruelty and hatred." If you consider the king's words biased, well, in the present time RICHARD told Cale that all elves are evil. I mean, if someone like Richard calls someone evil.... (although knowing Richard he probably meant it as praise). Oh and the Vulii soldier in the catacombs said: "The Elven have discovered their true path. One of conquest and dominion." There, straight from the horse's mouth.

As for destroying cultures that stand in their way: The Vulii destroy Gamlon utterly. We've seen the ruins. In the present time, there are no traces of Gamlon's culture left, not even legends, that's how utterly the Vulii destroyed any trace of Gamlon. It's what we today call ethnic cleansing. The Vulii soldier said it himself: "Gamlon is vanquished." Not just "subdued", vanquished. Also, we've seen enslaved and humiliated minotaurs, Krunch's race, chained up and forced to push the Vulii siege engines. Last but not least they wanted to destroy Kethenecia and all it stood for.

As for killing small defenseless children: They killed Lena. It's unclear if they knew at that moment that Lena was the Gamlonian king's daughter (not that the wish to destroy a ruling bloodline would be an ethical excuse), or if they merely wanted to slaughtered anyone they found in the catacombs. And the archmage said of the oncoming Vulii army, "Every man, woman and child of Kethenecia will be put to the sword."



Riiight. Except, there are NO tales of Gamlonian cruelties in Tavor's time. There are plenty about the Vulii, see my quotes and links above. And it's a fantasy story... Gamlon as the truly peaceful nation exists as the counter-image to the Vulii (who conquer) and Kethenecia (which was supposed to be noble, wise and and force for good, but became deeple corrupt, as the archmage and the dragon leader have admitted numerous times. I'm too tired to link to every last page in Book 3 where they talk about it.)



Huh? I'm afraid that an oath doesn't work like that.
Hey, I can show you stories from feudal Japan, about samurai who were commanded by their liege lord to go and kill this or that other lord or samurai working for another lord, and when they dutifully went to do that, they found out that the target was an old childhood friend... or even their own long-lost son! But they still felt they could not betray their lord's order, so often they killed first the target and then themselves, or went into a duel hoping their opponent would win and slay them first.


Yes, but such a timeline never existed. Even Cale had to realize, after imploring the archmage to send troups to Gamlon's aid, that such aid would never come, or come to late. Gamlon's fall couldn't be averted, only avenged. The only difference between Cale and Tavor is that Cale wants to seek revenge upon the Vulii and bathe his blades in Vulii blood (again, he has said so several times) whereas Tavor correctly identified the archmage as the real perpetrator.

Yeah that archmage, who was using the Vulii to destroy everything and make a "clean slate", the world be damned. The archmage only cares for his Glorious Plan. He has already given up on the Kethenecia of the past so he scarpers and leaves the past in bloody shambles, to try again in the future/present. Great. <sarcasm> (see my above link to my posting about the archmage's motivations, in another thread.)

One word: ASSUMPTION



Implies, but not proves. May or may not be sarcasm, you know, like, the big brother teasing the little brother, scaring him a bit.



All I am maintaining is that just criticizing the Vulii does not make Gamlon "good".




Well, we also see the enslaved horses, forced to carry full-mnetal-clad individuals, on both sides.


REALLY? Now if the AM was such a manipulator, how come he could let THAT happen?



Still I mantain that the Vulii's motives are not killing defenseless children. Much easier ways to do that, without going to war...


We of course see many Vulii talking about Gamlon, yes. We also have definite proof that Gamlon soldiers never commited a war crime...or something?




Cale and Tavor don't really look Japanese to me.

Delving deep into philosophy - my opinion is that all timelines exist simultaneously, but CHOICE is what determines which one we walk. And that's nothing to do with the comic itself, it's got to do with how my brain works when thinking about this. And this is where my statement that Tavor did what he CHOSE to do comes from



Ever thought of the possibility that the AM let that happen BECAUSE that was the only way to do better next time? I mean, reinstating a cheery idealistic elf to the throne of Kethnecia...not a good idea at all. I can imagine some "trusty" Aelloon-like advisor telling Cale the King how everything is going well, don't worry about it; while pushing his own agendas.

Cale had to witness all the hardships first hand, if he was going to be fit to be king. He had to experience them, so he would know not to take it easy when time comes.

You make valid points, but the fact is that our information is limited. There is just too much we don't know about this world, to be certain of anything. This all is not really a discussion about the comic...it's more a confrontation of our ways of thinking. And I like that.

PART I of reply:


Bullshit. The archmage talks about the circle, the insane beholder in the time portal talks at length how he is there to make sure the prophecy (golden statue) gets fulfilled and the timeline stays intact.


Right, and everyone else fears the Vulii merely because they don't wipe their feet when they come over for tea.


Who ever claimed that? Acting good and noble makes Gamlon good.

But I get it, you don't WANT to see Gamlon as good, therefore you ignore or dismiss anything that doesn't fit your view. There's no use talking to you any further.


Last I checked, horses were not intelligent being with a culture, they were domesticated animals. Stop acting like a troll.


The archmage WANTED the Vulii to destroy everything, so he let it happen. I thought that was clear. He admitted it black on white.


Of course no-one goes to war just to kill children. The Vulii go to war to kill EVERYONE who doesn't surrender including their families. The point is, they do not let the civilians go, or even enslave the women and children, they simply kill them.


We see OTHER people i.e. in Kethenecia talk about Gamlon. And they never mention any atrocities.
As for the Vulii, they do not claim they attacked Gamlon because of Gamlonian crimes against them or whatnot. THey very clearly state that they will vanquish Gamlon because it had the temerity to defy them and resist their rule.

Part II of reply:


Apparently you can't recognize an analogy when it bites you.


Ah, the many-worlds interpretation interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. Terry Pratchett uses it a lot to good effect on Discworld.

But your pesonal opinion does not matter. You're not writing the comic, therefore it doesn't matter what you think about timelines or physics in real life, if the authors decide to do it differently intheir story. LFG is clearly a fantasy world where prophecies do come true (if only because the archmage is there to manipulate the timestream), thus it lands it squarely in the camp of Predeterminism. *sigh* I could now rant about Augustinus vs Pelagius dispute in Catholic doctrine and the Pelagsian heresy of Free Choice... but I think that would go entirely OT.


By your own logic, we only have the archmage's word for that. And the guy could be considered insane and megalomanic.


Which of course wouldn't make it a corrupt kingdom at all. <sarcasm>

The question is, why DOES Kethenecia have to be re-born, why does a "cheery idealistic elf" be installed on the throne? The answer is, it doesnt. Only because the archmage and the dragon want their puppet king. Remember, they say "WE will do it better this time", not "Hopefully Cale will do a better job than we did back then."


Again, why does Cale have to be the king? Why does he have to be molded first? Did they pick him because his idealism was blind and naive enough that he would swallow the lies they told him? Now, I'm not saying that Cale might not become a good king in time. But that is beside the point.


Funny, you seem to be so certain about your view while I quote and point out tons of information we do have, but you just dismiss it.
Oh noez, we can't be certain, we need further data! Yeah we do I have heard that before...
[self-censored expletive] Goodbye.

Hey, Sohmer, are the Vulii brutal assholes? Thanks we cleared that up.


-----
(*) I had to snip for length because I'm getting censored because I quote too much:
"THE FOLLOWING ERROR(S) WERE FOUND
You have posted more than the allowed number of quoted blocks of text"

Well, that's interesting.

The statement "There's no use talking to you" followed by a lot of talking. Lead by example much?

Thanks for proving my point by getting personal

QED

I prefer not to discuss things with people who spend half the discussion telling me what I think and what I want to think. Sorry, if I ever want a shrink, I'll go and pay a professional.