This was brought up on the Strongest Character thread, but did not yield a conclusive answer so I ask all of you:

Who beats whom?

Benny beats Richard, hands down.

Benny beats Richard because of her red shields and studying his moves... and Cale's pledge to protect her.

Richard snabitches!

Richard can't be injured. He'll win simply by out-living Benny.

Benny: *Rez on Richard*

Richard, being undead, is beaten. Besides, like it's been said, Cale took an oath to protect Benny, and while Richard has Sooba, well...

That just struck me as odd.

Benny: *'Summons' Cale*
Richard: *Summons Sooba*

I'm certain Cale can take Sooba, and Richard, while immortal as a whole person, does need Benny to heal him up after every "mishap." So after a quick freeze'n'shatter, Richard's done.

Krunch. Oh, wait. Wrong poll.

I say Benny, mostly because she has both Cale's oath and Krunch's over-protectiveness at her back (dude tackled a dragon, people), on top of her own priestessy stuff. Much as Richard is undead and therefore pretty much indestructible life-wise, his flesh is obviously vulnerable (or Benny wouldn't have had to heal it so many times), so the three could probably just pick him apart until nothing was left.

Might take a while, though.

Plus, wouldn't a priestess have access to (if she doesn't know it herself) anti-undead magic? Something murky and far back in my D&D background says "holy" folks can spell the "un" out of the undead.....

I'm not sure Richard's undead, healing is supposed to harm them, yet Benny is able to heal him up no problem. But otherwise, you are correct, holy aura's beat the crap out of undead.

I, too, am iffy on Richard's undead-ness. But his innards are greenish and unbloody, so I'm leaning that direction. *shrug*

That doesn't necessarily mean undeadedness, it could just mean that our beloved writers showed some restraint and decided not to draw in all the gory insides of the warlock, or he could be a monster, mountain dew, or some other green drink addict.
Or possibly an alien, you never know, all the wizards in the Recluce novels are aliens...

Point taken and acceded. Definitely iffy. And I'm starting to warm to the Mountain Dew theory. It has a certain...panache....

He definately strikes me as the type of gamer who never leaves his room and lives off of mountain dew and pizza, but always has a snappy comment up his sleeve.

But Benny did just refer to him as an undead in the latest strip.

So she did, now I'm more confused than ever. How does healing an undead work?

She may be a priestess, but considering her stand on morals I wouldn't be surprised if she's dipped into the darker end of the magic spectrum. She could, theoretically, be casting a death spell on him, and that's what heals him. It would make sense.

I don't really see a death spell mending broken tissue though, even dead tissue.

And doesn't she say, at some point, "Stay still so I can heal you"?

It boggles the mind...

I solve the dilemma by remembering that this series is its own world and, thus, has its own rules. It takes from other venues, but it isn't ruled by them. Easier, that way.

Yeah, that's probably right, although I would have preferred a monster filled Richard.

And I think it depends on the will of the caster. Holy magic might not hurt Richard if Benny doesn't want it to. Her intention was to heal him, so the magic healed him.

That's true, it may have been a heal the TISSUE spell as opposed to a heal the PERSON spell.

Regeneration which brings back my thread about Richard reminding me of Deadpool though Richard needs Benny to stop being broken while Deadpool is well if you know, you know.

I would say Richard is undead. Everyone referrs to him that way, Benny's healing spells or not.

A question though - take away every over fact of the battle outside of Richard Vs. Benny. Say instead they are just in nothingness, forced to fight eachother. I think Richard would win as he has melee and magical ability (and probably stronger magical ability)

Richard wins.

Benny loses.

End of story.

Let's have pie.

There are two types of Undead: real undead, like in Resident evil, ye know, those brainless moaning bite-machines.
And there are others, though in a dead body, who still have their consciousness, can think and talk an all that, like Richard and the Forsaken in WoW.

I guess thats what makes the difference.
Or, as you said, there two types of worlds. The first type, where Heal spells hurt Undeads, and the second where they don't. Hmm, if healing does damage...

b2t: I think RIchard would win. He'd one-hit Cale an beat Benny with his Monk skills. I doubt her shields work on that. Oh, and he'll kill me if I say something else.

Want some Cookies?

There really aren't two types of undead, dead is dead, they just take different forms in their unlife, so spells should affect them in the same way. Also, I'm abosultely certain Benny's shields could stop anything she wants them to, they stopped the arrows and fireballs, why not a foot? There is also a factor you haven't yet considered, Richard is or at least was, a man. And from what I know about men (which is quite a lot seeing as I am one) they would be at least a little distracted by the area below the head, allowing Benny to gain the upper hand.

The only place I've seen that healing spells damage undead is (A)D&D/D20.* I thought that harm spells healed undead in them, but I'm not bothering to check that. Something to do with that model having the heal spells pull off a positive or holy plane, which heals mortals (in the small amounts, they'd be blown away if in the pure zone, or at least not be mortal) but damages undead that pull more from a negative/unholy energy. The harm spell drew energy from the negative/unholy plane and was always detrimental to life- the amount only determining to what degree the detriment. Since this is the same plane that undead drew energy from, it healed them.

As has already been acknowledged, that doesn't have to be the model Sohmer is using. In fact, being heavily WoW influenced, it can be that heal spells just heal what's there, to the best it can be. But, playing devil's advocate, it could be that Benny, an evil priestess, is casting spells that woudl harm anyone else, but heals Richard. She isn't under corporate (TSR/WoC/Hasbro or otherwise) obligation to say "I am casting [spell name]" and the spell heals, so she right talks about healing Richard. I really don't think the D20 model is being used here, but it's not absolutely cut out for any sticklers who desperately want it to be that way.


*It does occur to me that in other games, certain spells that healed may not have worked at all on undead, but by that token, didn't harm them. Not too sure either way. Definitely don't remember another system where a spell spefically used for healing absolutely harmed undead.

Other thing- And Hunter, I don't know if you'd mention the Deadpool comparison before, but I can see it. Now I only saw him when he was first introduced in New Mutants and maybe the first couple of issues of the limited edition run, but I definitely see the comparison. In fact, we need to add the title, "Warlock with a Mouth" to match "Merc with a Mouth". Course, as I remember him, Deadpool wasn't so gunho about stirring things for the heck, unless it helped a job he was paid for, but still a good comparison.

According to WOW folklore, the magic that created the Scourge and the Forsaken is Demon Magic brought forth from another plane in existance. The magic was a hellish magic that bonded with the plague that swept the land (Warcraft 3 known as blight) as such the being risen from these are a creature created by magic but as the magic created them through a living entity (i.e. the blight) and as such the magic took on living characteristics in essence to sustain the forms that the demons and pit lords created. Therefore Healing Spells and consumption of food(flesh etc.) sustain them, however there are obviously spells that are designed to kill them. Think about why you can't just dispel the enchantment on the undead and just make him dead? It's because the magic is so powerful that magic not specifically designed for the job will just be "fooled" into doing it's normal ability. as such i vote for richard cause given what we seen of their powers richard has more variety therefore more capable and likely to win. srry poor grammar and explaination but too lazy to fix

And remember, there is such a thing as an undead Holy Priest. An undead would not be able to wield Holy magic if it harmed him or her.

That's strictly within WoW context, though. We've been given no proof that that is the template by which their magic was decided. For all we know, it could be the other way around.

Exactly, I've been making my points using strictly non WoW logic, partly because I don't play and partly because I'm tired of everyone using that logic on a completely different universe.

And yet, WoW logic works in a number of circumstances, such as here. Of course, in this case, I think the real WoW logic is: "We don't want to make an entirely different system for undead healing, so..."

well, Richard has already showed us how he rolls.

And healing isn't anywhere near as big a deal. Think about ressurections. There was a really good comic, I think PA before they got the strategy guide gig, about the whole "So wait, if you resurrected him, he should be alive now, right?"

As for maxUndeadness' WoW folklore, or any WoW folklore, take it with a grain of salt, because of the source not the messenger. Blizz does the mechanics first, maybe along with funny bits (the various things units in WC and SC said if you kept clicking them), and story second. They don't do consistent story, that's already been shot. They had to admit with the whole Dranei/Broken One thing, and the stuff that they give an explanation for...well the explanation is stretched for anything beyond- you had this before and we're telling you this now.

As a WoWer, currently lapsed, I can appreciate the undead who can get heals without explanation. If you want something more, no need to hunt other genres. This is along what someone else said I believed:

Healing heals flesh. Period. The "healing" Benny has done has only patched up tissue- nothing else. For instance, she didn't heal any damage from the shammy attack against Richard- which may or may not have affected tissue inside, but seemed to disrupt his being on a non-physical level. She HAS repaired bone and skin and tissue. Maybe not making it alive, maybe so as far as undead are alive, but at least reapiring it enough that undead can make use of it. (I'm not getting into the technical nature of undead status in this universe- too little info- so this is for either way it could go).

Plus, I don't recall ever mentioning World of Warcraft. Knowing that a lot of fantasy realms are similar, I took a guess.

I think Benny would win simply because she has a better head on her shoulders and thinks her decisions through. Richard just strikes for the hell of things and could probably be caught off guard pretty easily. Plus, there's what "The Lone David" said:




So, Richard, albeit undead, still needs someone to close the gaping wounds of his body.

So freeze him, shatter him, then don't let anyone touch him. Victor: Benny.

heck no! even if Richard was caught off guard, he's still an UNDEAD... he can't die again, so if se shot a spell at him, there'd just be a hole in him, like when Richard had to lose baby weight. anyhow, he could make her skeleton crawl out of her own skin...

that wouldn't be pretty...

Richard:"There goes the cleric."

Cale:"WHAT DID YOU DO???

Richard would outsmart Benny, he's too clever by half. First Richard would wait until Krunch was occupied with another task like, for instance, tackling a dragon. Then he would have Sooba distract Benny while he FWOOSHs Cale AGAIN, then it's 2 on 1 and things look grim for the Cleric.

That's my take on it.

. . . I think y'all are underestimating Richard's sneakiness!
That "Fwooosh" caught Cale off guard, right? Only follows that if Richard takes out Benny with an unexpected "Fwooosh" it's tits up for the green gurlie.
( course no reason to do that, she heals him without him even asking. ..why are you pitting them against each other again? )

Do you remember why Richard started up with Cale in the first place?

BOREDOM ... the guys hella smart, just bored to tears or whiffs of dust - whatevah.

I have to agree with Quinn and Ambyant. Benny is smart, but she's just too hot-headed. Richard is easily annoyed, but he's also very cool and calculating when he wants to be. He knows when to go off on someone versus when to be a little more cautious.

And yeah, besides Krunch and Benny, the priestess and Richard seem to have the best relationship in the group. They understand each other and have a disturbingly similar sense of humor. It's fun to wonder who would win in a fight, but I just don't see those two duking it out.

Just to put my 2 cents in on the whole Healing Richard is he undead thing, you have to remember, That in D&D, ALL Clerics get access to Inflict and Harm, and Cure and Heal. Their Alignment only decides which they can cast spontaneously. Also, Undead are healed by Negative energy and hurt by positive energy and vice versa for living creatures. Thus why Paladin Lay on Hands and Cure Spells give undead a will save for half damage instead of healing them.

As for WoW, the whole undead holy priest thing is BS. Thats a loophole so they could put them in the game and not have to make a Weird ass death coil spell and make it all funky to play an Undead. As for WC3, if you remember Holy Light did half damage to undead, Scourge or Forsaken, and healed allies. Deathcoil, did the exact same only healed Undead and Hurt the living.

So in Essence, all she needs to do is memorize Inflict spells to heal Richard and spontaneously cast Cure(if she is good aligned) to heal the others. Which is why Clerics are Winsauce in D&D.

But thats D&D rules. Who knows in LFG? Magic could all be pulled from the same plane and whatever the caster wishes to do with it decides whether it is Divine or Arcane.




As for the Poll, are we talking about a fight or the character's coolness? I think Richard is cooler because he has a higher range of ability and the lovable joke cracking evil guy. But in a fight a cleric would whoop his arse. Shield, Mass Heal that hurts him heals her and she totally kicked the crap out of a bunch of guys in a bar fight with just her staff (to the person who said Richard would win because he has melee and spells) and Benny most likely has better Buff spells.

I have always been of the opinion that there can be Evil aligned Paladins since a Paladin is simply a Knight in service to a deity. a knight who exemplifies all that the deity in question embodies. Thanos from Marvel Comics is a good example, i suppose.

Benny.. btw.. i dont think Richard is undead..
*thinks of Kiff talking about being supported by a system of fluid filled bladders*
hmm maybe thats it

Since the comic bears most resemblance to the Warcraft series, I'd make the wager that the healing hurting undead debate could be solved by comparing three different spells in Warcraft 3 to best show the example made;

Holy Light: Paladin skill, heals live units, harms undead. Cookie-cutter example of reverse heal.
Death Coil: Death Knight skill, hurts live units, heals undead. Yet another cookie cutter example.
Heal: Priest skill, heals all types, harms none. Example of selectively useful healing spells.

That shall be my explanation, along with the fact that Benny is an Orc, after all, and it would only make sense to include her abilities as either an all-range healer, or simply a negative type one. But that's not here nor there, and let us forget the idea of healing offensively and substitute the fact that we know well that she's physically capable; as well as magically capable in offense and defense. Replace heal with freeze, and voila.

But to sum up Richard's traits, you have extreme resistance to physical and magical (if you count dragon fire as magic) endurance, as well as his own spells. And last, but not least, Richard's awesome levels are off the charts.

To cut to the chase, however, the only time Richard and Benny would be engaged in a fight would be to decide who was on top, if I'm reading the subtext correctly. ;o

It's not often that I restrict my reply to an emote but..

In DnD clerics can heal undead (especially evil clerics), they just have to use negative energy that would normally harm living beings.

Negative energy is to undead that positive energy is to the living and all death spells use negative energy.


However if you think it is just mending flesh and broken bones, I don't see why healing wouldn't work

Beeny.... for the totally irrational reason I find her foxy. But they're both critical elements of the team.
And she can block pretty much any of his spells as far as I can tell..... so its probably an impasse until we know who can channel the most mana.